Pleasure, Power, and Becoming, Abroad with Jessica Stahl of Vanilla Cool Dance
House Of Peregrine (01:03)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine podcast. I'm Mickelle Weber and I'm so happy you're joining us today. I first met today's guest through a cartoon that was hanging just outside my house in the streets of Amsterdam. One that made me smile every time I passed it. It featured a king and a queen in a rather cheeky moment on a throne with the caption that read, a true king knows who comes first. It was by today's guest, Jessica Stahl.
the creator of Vanilla Cool Dance, a viral cartoon series and global movement that's changing the way we talk about sex, relationship, and self-expression.
Jessica's work is bold, funny, and surprisingly tender, and her story, it's just as layered. She began her career in New York City's advertising world, but when something didn't feel quite right after a breakup, she bought a one-way ticket to Amsterdam, and with no job and no apartment, she had a backpack and a very serious question. What do I actually want? What followed was a year of communal living,
and a commitment to drawing something every day that was on her mind or her heart, something that was coming up for her. It ended up unraveling years of old shame and led to the creation of Vanilla Cool Dance. What May has started as a way to reclaim her own story has ⁓ since become a place where tens of thousands of people come to feel a little more seen, a little less alone, and a lot less ashamed.
The message? There's no part of our humanity, whether it's sex, power, consent, that's too taboo to talk about. In fact, that's often where the most important conversations come to life. Jessica was recently named Sex and Relationships Creator of the Year and recognized by Cairns Lyon as a global creative leader. Even more than the accolades she's acquired, what stands out about her is how she uses humor and cartoons
to disarm, connect, and remind us that growth doesn't have to be serious to be profound. In short, Jessica has a rare ability to call people in instead of calling them out. And that leads to some massive breakthroughs in awareness. I'm so excited to share this conversation with you and I hope you enjoy it. Thank you so much for joining me today, Jessica. I am so excited to have you on.
Jessica (03:38)
Thank you so much for having me and what the nicest intro I've ever received. So thank you for that.
House Of Peregrine (03:46)
Great, that's what I love to hear. I love to hear that. So I want to start out by you taking us quickly to that moment when you bought the plane ticket, one-way ticket to Amsterdam. What, why Amsterdam? Just walk us through that moment.
Jessica (03:47)
you
So I had always dreamed of living abroad and back at the time I had a boyfriend before the breakup, the one who broke up with me, who wasn't as interested in as I was. So already at that point I had gone on a solo backpacking adventure throughout Europe and I think that's what planted the seed of wow, there's so many different ways to live that aren't the ⁓ way we were living in the US.
and maybe ways that I had identified more with. So when he broke up with me, that was really in my mind of if he hadn't been in the picture or the reason to go back to the States in the first place, where would I have gone to next? And I knew that Amsterdam was international. I knew that it was a creative city with a lot of different agencies. So I thought, let's go there.
House Of Peregrine (04:55)
That's amazing. So you knew a little bit about it and decided, and you really leaped, you leapt, like you, no job, ⁓ anything. You just, knew you wanted to maybe have a relationship with the city for a while.
Jessica (05:10)
Yes, and I had never been here. I didn't look up the weather. So when I arrived and it was raining in the middle of November, I was completely caught off guard. But I think for me to, I have an easier time taking giant leaps than knowing all the details.
House Of Peregrine (05:30)
Yeah. Do you think you're the kind of person that if you knew that you might, might've stopped you? Yeah.
Jessica (05:35)
Absolutely. People
asked why not the UK like, why are you not moving to London? And I said the weather turns out I moved somewhere where it rains even more.
House Of Peregrine (05:44)
⁓
I can identify with that. think a lot of people can. When you know, do you describe it as like intuition or just adventure? I always ask people this question because house, house of Peregrine, Peregrine means one from abroad or an outsider. And usually this comes with this ability to fly or to when something doesn't feel right because Peregrines, they live on every continent of the world. And so they can live anywhere. They just go where it seems right for a season or a time. And so
Jessica (05:47)
you
House Of Peregrine (06:13)
I feel like people like you, like us, have that. So can you explain it any other way besides it was just time to go?
Jessica (06:22)
Yeah, I think that sums it up very well. I think it was just gut. Like, I struggle a lot with making small life decisions, but the big ones are always very intuitive and always, ⁓ I have the idea and then I have to execute it and there's no way that I'm going to not try.
House Of Peregrine (06:43)
Yeah, it's amazing. I love that. And I connecting with people who are like that because it's really hard to explain. Does your family understand this about you?
Jessica (06:54)
Yes, I think that they knew it before I did actually. So when I had told my mom that I booked, that I was going to book a ticket, she wasn't surprised. I think she may be surprised that I stayed, but the idea of moving to Europe, I think she always knew that this would, could happen for me. So I've been very lucky in that to be supported.
House Of Peregrine (07:16)
Yeah.
Yeah, nice. So they're kind of like, ⁓ Jessica, she's just like that.
Jessica (07:23)
⁓ Yeah, maybe I don't give them the choice I just am who I am and I'm lucky they love me ⁓ anyways, yeah
House Of Peregrine (07:32)
Yeah,
yeah, no, it's, everyone has different experiences that way, but I think it's lovely that they know that about you and before you knew yourself, that's a beautiful thing. So then I wanna tell you my reflection. So when I found out that you weren't Dutch, I had kind of a visceral reaction, like how brave, she just put their king and queen, and you've done several cartoons since, but when I, the first one I saw was near King's Day.
and maybe you can walk us through your first one. But my impression was when I found out you weren't Dutch, my God, she is so brave to give this level of commentary or use this device in a place that she's not from. So that's a compliment to you. It's a very brave thing.
Jessica (08:13)
Yeah. Thank you.
Thank you. Yes. I I love to be on the line of brave to stupid ratio to walk that fine balance. But I, yes, to make that kind of commentary, political commentary, societal commentary, it was definitely a risk because I'm not Dutch. But because of my
interesting onboarding to the Netherlands. So having lived in that 17 person university house with my Dutch roommates, I have felt very integrated in to the Dutch culture into knowing people that I can pulse check things. So I had a pretty good indication of the level of how people talk about the king. Of course, this this cartoon was to transcend the actual king and to be more about
metaphorical kings in general, but and also how the Dutch humor is, but it was definitely definitely a risk and I wasn't sure how society would react. So I was scared.
House Of Peregrine (09:21)
Yeah.
Yeah. Well, and tell me, tell me how I would love to hear how this evolved. Like, tell us a story. There's a whole story before it made it to the streets of Amsterdam on Kings Day, right? So maybe tell me that story. As we know, these stories don't unfold literally until we look back. And so tell me, let's rewind to how from that moment of you putting your first mural on the wall in Amsterdam, where did it start for you?
Jessica (09:47)
Yeah.
Great. Well, similar to booking a one way ticket to Amsterdam and to having an idea that just lights me up and I have to execute is kind of how this got started. So I had already been learning about the orgasm gap, is the, ⁓ which is about 30%. And so ⁓ of how, yeah, sure, sure. So the orgasm gap is the difference in how
House Of Peregrine (10:09)
Tell us about it. Tell us about what you learned. Yeah.
Jessica (10:16)
often a woman versus man reliably orgasms with a partner. And it's quite a big difference. And of course, there's so many factors that go into this. There's one that we grew up in a world where female pleasure wasn't centered, where we grew up watching porn that was focused on male pleasure, that was focused on penetration, when in fact, most women can't achieve an orgasm through penetration alone. So it's, we were not set up
for success, not only that, but women don't realize their pleasure is valid. They don't know how to communicate that to a partner. Men grew up watching the same porn we did. So they also think that we're getting off. So there's just all this miscommunication. But the majority of women or the majority of people with a vulva need clitoral stimulation to get off.
So I had already been wanting to do something with this and Farrell Dean Kemper had also come out with the documentary series, Tessandla Lockins. So it was also ⁓ quite in the news. And I was walking with a friend and I remember this distinct memory. It was in the middle of Amsterdam and we were talking about King's Day and he or I had said, it's crazy like that on King's Day, so many people
probably are going home, having sex, and yet the queens are getting screwed. And so that was kind of the original insight. So I thought, okay, how could I take a day that's all about the king and make it about our queens? And how can I help make sure that everyone in the kingdom is coming this King's Day? And so that was kind of how I set out to do it. And I think I had about...
four weeks to put everything into action. ⁓ So I started drawing right away. had put out like, gosh, somebody connected me to a woman who helped me with the street art and we went out and did it all ourselves. And I was wearing this like bright pink raincoat, because I didn't even think much about it. She's like, you could have come in a little bit more stealth. ⁓
⁓ Cover but yeah, was such an amazing experience like to be able to create this from scratch and to really kind of develop my own style So for instance, we could have done just normal posters But I really wanted to take over the entire city and also make it feel like art. So we ended up doing these giant life-size Cutouts and I would like to really make them big and make the statement in your face and the message and the artwork of
what it was for the people listening is that it's an illustration of a king going down on a queen sitting on a throne. ⁓ They look debatably like the king and the queen of the Netherlands ⁓ with the message, a true king knows who comes first and the king is wearing the sash that says close the orgasm gap. And
House Of Peregrine (13:11)
It's clear who it is.
Jessica (13:24)
Yeah, it's a very provocative artwork, but using this playful cartoon to make it more approachable. And we took over the city with these life-size cutouts, as well as thousands of stickers, and in all the bars and all the restaurants and on all the street holes. So the city was completely decked out in this message.
House Of Peregrine (13:44)
Yeah, it was beautiful. thought it was really fun. what was your reaction? Because I mean, it wasn't like you were being anonymous. It's not like you were hiding it, right?
Jessica (13:54)
No, no, have like
scan for a good time with my handle so people could find me. Yeah. Yeah. So mostly positive, I had the first message I received was I had put one up in Amsterdam South, which was probably where they needed the most but also where I got a message that was like how dare you put
House Of Peregrine (13:58)
Yeah. Yeah. And what was the, what were the messages you were receiving about this?
Jessica (14:20)
this corn up in front of children, I'm calling the police on you and they found my number and like called me, ⁓ called my phone. So that was a bit intimidating. And I, you you have, you have to, when you put your art into the world, takes a life on its own and you have to
House Of Peregrine (14:41)
you put your art into the world and your phone number with the QR like you did not you
Jessica (14:44)
I don't know my phone number out, but I guess it was on my website Yeah, publicly there was no hiding
there was no hiding and I I remember because I was still working at Doppler So I had like gone to work that morning and just sat there quiet. Not sure what was gonna happen And then I got this message and then thought fuck like well, but I did say that you know, I did say to him that You know, this was for me actually ⁓
learning opportunity and nothing is shown in This visual that's like, you know, you don't really see anything So one a child probably isn't going to understand it and two so many mothers and fathers have messaged me about how this cartoon has opened up a conversation that they can have with their children, so I so Actually, and that is the majority of messages. It's like
I've had mom sending me like there's their kids sticking the poster and saying I'm raising I'm raising a true king like that have opened the conversation to sex education with their children because of it. So that is incredible. I got very lucky because Gerardine Kemper loved the idea. So she was the first person to post post having seen it on the street. And so it really
picked it up like the community in Amsterdam picked it up right away and everyone was looking out for it. So the messages were incredible. Women saying that they have never received so much pleasure in one night. Yeah, right. The guys got the message. Yeah, yeah. Nobody wants to will go home after that and not try to be a king.
House Of Peregrine (16:18)
guys got the message they understood the assignment.
Yeah. It was a public service. Yeah. Well, with so many messages that are, I mean, this gentleman calling you is not, he's not acting alone. This is a very common notion that children should be protected. But what we know is that children aren't protected from negative messages about what normalize, the normalization of what sex should look like is, I mean,
Jessica (16:31)
Yes, I think. I like to think.
House Of Peregrine (16:57)
as much as we try. YouTube is a public space or all these places where children go are not protected.
so it's like, ⁓ I see it as an inoculation. Like the kids are getting all these messages we don't want them to have, whether we want to or not. This is actually a really positive and playful message. Yeah.
Jessica (17:10)
Yeah. Powerful message.
Yeah. And I think exactly what you're saying that, and this kind of goes into effect in how I view the, how now they're doing age verification. I think in the United States, they're trying to implement this for porn and it's such a double edged sword. Kids are going to access porn anyways. So we may as well actually be putting out
porn or content or educational materials that are showing authentic pleasure, showing real bodies, showing like sex education and sex that's not performative, but that's real, because they are going to get around this, they are going to find it. And also, this is an amazing opportunity to educate them. And that was what was so amazing to me was all these parents that were coming to me saying, my gosh, like,
I, my kid had these questions and I was able to show them your art, like, or like this helped me approach it in a fun way with them because it can be, I find talking about it awkward with them. So that's, that's been incredible. It's a cartoon.
House Of Peregrine (18:18)
Yeah, it's a cartoon. You're not,
yeah, it's a cartoon. And that I think is part of the brilliance of how you approach this is it's a cartoon. They look very innocent. They look very like genuine. so, and genuine in the way like they're, you know, this guy is like basically inviting everyone to be a king, right? That's, it's cool. So, yeah, calling in.
Jessica (18:41)
Yeah, yeah, it's calling in. It's like a positive
message instead of calling people out. So it's also a positive message for men.
House Of Peregrine (18:52)
Yeah. And so I want, have three questions, so I have to decide which way to go. But what I, what I want to know is what your journey was to this, because it sounds like you're bringing your, people in your community and your followers along on your own journey. And so maybe it didn't start with the breakup that brought you to Amsterdam, but tell me where your own journey started with, with, you know, the orgasm gap is a, is it just one beginning of realizing
I mean, is the phrase that I could use for you that you realize we've been lied to?
Jessica (19:25)
Yeah, I felt gypped. felt like...
Scammed by life that I didn't realize that female pleasure was valid and I think my journey with my cartoons is and it's been with sexuality. It's been with relationships. I think it started with for instance learning about attachment theory and learning right you can Say what you want in a relationship like that is allowed. I Didn't know that I thought I was supposed to just be quiet. I thought that the
inches avoidant the push-pull relationships the highs and lows were the only way in fact those were the aspirational way so I think it started just with relationships in general and realizing wait there's other ways that I can act that I can be like to be closer to my authentic self and then that also happened when it came to pleasure I remember having a partner of mine he went down on me I had an orgasm and he kept going down on me
And I was like, already came and he goes, yeah, I know. Let's go for round two. And I was like, wow, I never knew that somebody could like care that much about my pleasure or even get pleasure from providing me pleasure. Cause that was also for him as well. And my own journey with that and. ⁓
House Of Peregrine (20:41)
Yeah.
And I want to ask right in there,
do you feel part of this is cultural? Because I think at least I'm also American. so the messages we receive may be different because we grew up in different part of the countries and we're probably different generations. But I think it is a bit cultural. Did this do you think part of this transformation was a bit cultural?
Jessica (21:05)
⁓ Part of my transformation will be moving here. ⁓
House Of Peregrine (21:08)
Yeah, so like dating in a different culture because from all accounts Dutch people are more direct. They would say that, I think. And so did is that part of this for you or did it have?
Jessica (21:20)
Yeah, think a lot of the shame around sexuality is 1000 % cultural. I received messages from people that grew up not knowing that women should not have desire, that they grew up religious, they grew up religious not talking about sexuality in general, that they're still having to unlearn all of this because they have such
House Of Peregrine (21:38)
Yeah.
Jessica (21:48)
they viewed sex as good or bad or for children or for not. So I think a lot of this is cultural. think in my own experience, the guy for instance that this is with, he was actually American. so yeah, one point for the states. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. ⁓
House Of Peregrine (22:00)
Good. That's good. ⁓ Yeah, good. No, no, that's good.
But I guess I'm projecting a bit here, like I, in the States, when I was growing up, I was always too direct and I moved here and people were like, we cannot understand what you want. And so I always have this like story of I'm not direct enough for the States. I'm too direct for the States. I'm not direct enough for here. And so I'm saying the same thing. I'm the same me, but in two different places, I'm too much and not enough, if that makes sense. And so I imagine in dating or in sex, those things, those themes might come up culturally or whatever.
Jessica (22:31)
Yeah, yeah.
House Of Peregrine (22:38)
I just wondered what part of that was. And also I think Amsterdam is a city that can handle this cartoon as well.
Jessica (22:44)
Definitely definitely and I think indeed I was coming here. I was dating all these different people and I was being exposed to Different cultures and how and how they view pleasure and I mean, I definitely can see different Lines of how this has translated throughout different cultures, but I would say the biggest thing was my evolution and myself and I think being less dependent on which partner I happen to get and how they view my pleasure and more
Self-reliant and realizing okay. No my pleasure is valid and I think in the beginning of this I had felt lied to and My initial reaction was anger So I've gone through a big evolution in that and I think many can relate you feel like you've been jipped and so I had zero tolerance for anyone who didn't show that they valued my pleasure and I would call them out
And in more recent years, I've learned to call them in because you have no idea what their story is. And I've had amazing conversations with somebody who with different people, one who never went down on me. And I had said to him, like, you never go down on me. And he said, ⁓ because all of his exes would push him away or they would feel insecure. And I'm like, no, I want that. And then he and then he went down on me all the time. And he liked it, too.
And so I started to give people the space to meet me and explore things with more curiosity because we all have so much shame, every one of us and we bring all that baggage into the bedroom.
House Of Peregrine (24:19)
Yeah, of course. That is, it's so true. And I think that one person's journey usually is reflective of the collective. So I think that just because you're, you're, you are speaking about it, you're furthering the conversation. I think there's been a collective like awareness around this. And we don't ever think that men or women are sitting over there going, ⁓ good, that's all part of my evil plan. But
Calling out is then the process of being able to call in, in my experience. So going through the calling out process is maybe as hard as it is to look back, or maybe it's not. It ends up in a good place. Cool. So I want to circle back to how the cartoon started, because it didn't start with this one cartoon on the street. You already had the characters for Vanilla Cool Downs.
Jessica (24:52)
Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (25:13)
So tell me a little bit about that, about that evolution, the evolution of the art and the characters. Not the characters of the King and Queen, but your style.
Jessica (25:20)
Yeah, so I had been living in this student flat and I was unemployed. I was heartbroken. I was incredibly embarrassed about my life situation. And I realized that instead of being sad about it, maybe I could do something with this to create more and more empowered version. So I made the decision that every day for one year I was going to draw about my cringy, embarrassing,
stories that made me feel insecure, but spin them in a more empowered, fun way. And I did. And every day for a year, I drew about my life. that's from day one, was Vanilla Cool Dance. And I used the name Vanilla Cool Dance because it was my first AOL Instant Messenger screen name from the 90s. And I used to be so embarrassed about it back then that when I decided to make
an account all about turning my shame and my embarrassment into empowerment and reclaiming this narrative, I brought back this name. So that's how that started.
House Of Peregrine (26:23)
Nice.
You were bringing everything. were a shade. All the stuff you hated was coming out. I love that.
Jessica (26:30)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And
if you scroll back, it was very self deprecating, very self deprecating humor. But that's what I needed at the time to
House Of Peregrine (26:39)
Yeah, it reminds me a little bit of Carolyn Elliott is her name, her existential kink. I don't know if you're familiar with her work. She's a mentor of mine, but she's a great one. Maybe you'll enjoy it, but it reminds me of what we bring our shadows out and play with them. And now you've created something really, really special. so were you drawing before? that something that you have always done?
Jessica (26:46)
No, I'll have to, I'll have to, yeah.
⁓ No, I was I mean I was a art director and in interested in graphic design so I've always been a creative but I never thought I could draw and I and I still wouldn't say that I could draw anything other than the current style that I have and I think what inspired me was I took some Skillshare classes and there was one ⁓ by Mari Andrew
And it was more on what is the story that you want to tell and less on how does it look And I also love, for instance, hyperbole and a half is another great example. And Stix, who is a street artist and has sculptures that are stick figures, but I find them incredibly emotional. And so once I could get past that, I started drawing just and my style kind of evolved.
into something very unique to me along the way.
House Of Peregrine (28:05)
Yeah, amazing. And so between this first, I mean, the king and queen thing was at least three years ago, the first one. Four years ago, yeah, okay. It was kind of like when we were all unfurling from COVID, I feel like that was the moment. Like we were all kind of like crawling out, we were able to see each other and then this was a moment for me at least where this appeared on the street and it just made me laugh, because it was something that was also
Jessica (28:15)
Yeah, I think four years ago now.
House Of Peregrine (28:35)
I was like, did somebody read my mind or? ⁓
Jessica (28:39)
Yeah, I think
that was also part of it. It was the first King's Day indeed when we could all be back out on the streets and I was like, we need to make sure we're doing this in the right way.
House Of Peregrine (28:49)
Yeah,
and it felt like a moment where we could rewrite stories, right? We'd all had some time inside, in Amsterdam, maybe not as much as other places. I don't know what your COVID was like, but mine was much more connected than a lot of other people where we were being careful, but we were having coffee walks and these things. But it felt like there was street art again, or a sign of things being different. So that was nice. But since then, how would you say your message has evolved or has it?
I think you've really broadened your scope a bit. Or maybe you have not. So tell me.
Jessica (29:25)
Yeah,
well, I love that I mean I've definitely I've done other street art since so I've done work in the US ⁓ after Roe v. Wade was overturned a few yeah, I can't believe now I'm saying this I guess for for fourth of July's ago so with provocative artwork to raise funds for Planned Parenthood I Have done pride campaigns in Amsterdam and I would say that the scope of my work has evolved
I mean, I've niched quite a bit, but then of course it gets wider. So I have become more interested in exploring my own sexuality and different relationship dynamics and dabbling in different worlds, like the kink community and the tantra community to understand what we can learn from those in terms of pleasure, in terms of communication. And so those are some new areas that I've been exploring more in my work
House Of Peregrine (30:19)
Yeah. And I think that that, again, I think that it's such a brilliant way to explore them with a cartoon because these words, and I don't know if you're familiar, like I did a TED talk last year about finances and marriage and partnership and unpaid labor. And my initial idea was I wanted to compare it to like kink, like the way we, the way our economy works. We had to walk that back.
Because when people hear these words, they can't hit the palate. Like they can't hit our brains without it being dangerous. There's all these words that we can't, these words are not neutral. And so the way that you're able to use them and with your cartoons makes it so people can actually, gets to that free, at least my experience of them, is it's a really brilliant way to get through, to talk about something really important, like communication.
like power, like everything that's, everyone kind of wants to talk about or wants to, but we can't because the words have too much power. And so again, I wanted to do like, we're all in a big kink with finances. Like we're in a power game that we love. That's why it's still here. Like we rely on it. It gets us off. It makes us feel powerful. It makes us feel unpowerful, but that was not going to...
Jessica (31:43)
love to come to your talk.
House Of Peregrine (31:45)
We did not do it. We ended up doing it.
We ended up really walking it back because I didn't want the words to be lost. I didn't want the message to be lost. And so what I love about your work is you're using, I love a lot of things about it, but what I think is that it's a brilliant move to use your cartoon, your medium, to explore these things and be so open with your, would you refer to it as audience, followers? Like what is your word you use? Yeah, your community.
Jessica (32:12)
Yeah, my community and
thank you. cartoons just make it approachable and they disarm people and and I think we need that when it comes to talking about this stuff. Unfortunately, we need that. Yeah. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (32:29)
Yeah, no, it is what it is. But
do you find that you're braver or because you're incredibly brave to to we feel like we know what's going on with you a little bit, right? We don't. We don't really. But we you're giving us these glimpses. And so do you think the cartoon makes you be able to say more than you would otherwise if you were just writing on Substack or something?
Jessica (32:51)
Yeah, yeah, and I have written on I do write on sub stack and I find it harder and I find it more vulnerable and more scary because the cartoon Does create a small separation even when I say it's about me ⁓ you know, for instance my Following is so kind and I Answer I try to answer every single DM. I start sharing a little bit more on my personal account as well and and I
and on my sub stack and I am aware of like the ratio of men to women. Maybe there ends up being more men on sub stack that follow me and maybe it's because I put my photos as opposed to only cartoons. I'm not sure the reason, but I do notice that it makes me feel a little bit more vulnerable, especially as a woman working in this space. So there is a lot that the...
And yet I also find it important to show the human behind it because for instance, ⁓ I think there was a cartoon where it was about body hair and then I showed like me, ⁓ what is it like trimming my whiskers? And I think there is something grounding in the fact that, yeah, this is a real person too. And that does feel scarier and that does feel more vulnerable in a way. But I think finding this balance of
of there is a human behind this and ⁓ yeah, adds a bit more depth and realness to it.
House Of Peregrine (34:21)
Yeah, but it's also very brave because I remember early in my career ending a few projects because I was physically afraid for my safety. And so that you're showing other women that it's okay to tell your story. And so I think that that's cool. But what I want to know is what you're learning about these things, because you're finding it very important to go on this journey, which I love, and you're sharing it with us, which I love. But what would you say you're learning? And you don't have to say.
Jessica (34:23)
Thank you.
House Of Peregrine (34:49)
This is where you are in your process right now. I'm talking to you on this day. In 10 years, you might be somewhere different, but at this moment, what are you learning through Tantra and Kink and BDSM and all these things? are your, like report to us from the inside for a second.
Jessica (35:03)
Yeah, yeah,
sure. Gosh, so many things. think that...
when you go to these more niche spaces, there's a level of awareness around communication, consent, boundaries, feeling for yourself, like your own boundaries that we, I guess in the mainstream don't discuss. So when we talk about consent, people think, my God, me too movement and okay, yes, she said yes.
Versus to me when I enter these more niche spaces, we really unpack what does consent look like at what and how sexy it can be how you can have a conversation with somebody and they say, okay, my boundary is I want you to like lightly stroke my thigh and then your hand can hover above my Penis, but I don't want like touch
And you're like, I didn't even think about something that like specific. ⁓ And then it gets you thinking like, where is my actual boundary? Because we're so used to saying yes, no, and, and black and white when there's all this grayness. ⁓ Another thing that I recently learned is these temple nights in Tantra, they ask you sometimes mid play, and you don't need to be playing but mid experience, are you still where you want to be?
House Of Peregrine (36:19)
Black and white, yeah.
Jessica (36:35)
Because maybe you don't want to be in the same place that you did one minute ago or where you want to be in one minute and just constantly having these check-ins that what these spaces have taught me the most is how to communicate boundaries, desire, and also how to connect better with myself to really feel in to me even if I need to take a beat and come back to it. What is it that I really want? Where is my...
my boundary and am I being honest with the other person? Because when I overstep my own boundaries, even though it's not the other person's fault, that's also not nice to them. Like that's also a disservice to the other person because they think you're enjoying yourself when you're really not. so I've learned so much from these spaces.
House Of Peregrine (37:25)
This goes way beyond sex, right? This is cultural, this is in your everyday life, this changes your perception. Like I said, it changes my perception of the entire world economy. this, ⁓ again, these themes you get to explore because it's such an extreme, it's not extreme, we find it extreme, but it's not extreme. It's actually rather, it's a,
Jessica (37:28)
yeah, this is
completely.
House Of Peregrine (37:53)
It's a transpersonal experience that helps you learn about yourself. And that's why it makes me sad that these words and these experiences are so taboo, but why I love that you're pulling them through in your cartoons, because we can talk about them. And so what else, like what is the most, maybe pull that through to being an international person. So you're living abroad now.
Six years? No, it's longer. Almost 10, yeah, sorry. We're about the same. And I feel like what I can apply through these themes, communication, culture, I find them safe. Like I find having a visa very dom sub. You know what mean? Like I find these themes pull through for me in international living. And so how have you explored that at all? I'm just curious.
Jessica (38:20)
can here.
But I love that. I mean, you think of all these. ⁓ I mean, I'm in an incredibly privileged position to be here. have a I was able to get a Polish passport, but I know so many people that are trying to stay in the Netherlands, for instance, or trying to move. And they're definitely in a dom sub relationship with the government, you know, being and and I haven't thought about it, though. So I'm definitely going to think about it more.
but indeed into how these Similar to what you were saying about finance how these themes that people are so afraid of of talking about transcend into every relationship dynamic we have Career interpret like every it's all in our interpersonal dynamics
House Of Peregrine (39:34)
Yeah, yeah. And so I think what your work does is brings it out into the open and maybe we'll start using different words, but I really think not to be too dramatic about it, but I think these types of things can really change the world a bit. They can shift. They can shift the world a little bit just because we can talk about it through a cartoon, right? But what I know from your work more broadly, your community is that you are
You really are living this, what you're giving to us. And so why do think it's so important for you, for yourself and for maybe your mission in life right now? Because I do, I think you find this as one of the things you're supposed to do here, right? When you're, you've opened yourself up to a lot of different spaces. So becoming sex educator, one of the sex educator of the year or these things.
What is it do you think that is emerging for you when you go into these spaces? Are you finding more safety in the world? Are you expressing different parts of yourself? Are you exploring different themes? Is there something? Sorry, I'm asking you such deep questions, but I think you can do it.
Jessica (40:40)
No, this is great. Yeah,
I think I am finally becoming the woman I was meant to be and the woman that wouldn't that would be if, you know, if she didn't grow up, you know, learning to feel shame due to society due to my lived experiences. And I think that we are, you know, that we're all born into this world free from shame. But along the way, we
dim our light, we learn to make ourselves smaller, we stop communicating. And, and this permeates everything. This is this shows up in how we do our job. This shows up in what we believe we should, you know, how far we can go in life. And it just makes me so sad that we nothing we feel is in isolation, and we all feel it.
And nobody's talking about it. We are all, you know, I have thousands of people that share their stories with me and thousands of others that share the same story with me. So if it's so beautiful to realize that what you are going through alone, you're not so special after all, you're not going through it alone where all of us are going through something. And if we just talked about it more, we would be able to live so much more confidently because
it loses its power in conversations and it loses its power in openness. And I think that's what my mission is. And I think through Vanilla Cool Dance, she started as a very aspirational character of mine and a part of me. And I think the longer I live with her and draw her and experience this is I get to start, I get to embody.
what I share with the world and I become, we start to merge and we were not always like that and now my character and myself have really started to find one another in the past five years, four years.
House Of Peregrine (42:51)
Wow, you're a method actor.
Jessica (42:54)
Yeah, I'm method drawing.
House Of Peregrine (42:56)
Your method drawing. No, I love it. That's perfect.
Well, and I think all art is an expression of a part of ourself. And so it's cool to have that be a person. Well, it's personified for you, I guess. And so when you're drawing, you're pretty like, it's pretty clear that you've had either an experience like it or a series of experiences like it. Has anyone you're dating ever approached you and been like, hey,
Jessica (43:02)
Hmm.
Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (43:24)
Too close.
Jessica (43:25)
Like not sure what you're drawing here like not sure I'm into this Yeah
House Of Peregrine (43:27)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Have they been like, hey, you can't draw that? Or have they been
like, that looks too much like me? Or is there ever been an experience like that?
Jessica (43:37)
Not like that. Luckily, my two last boyfriends have both been amazing and ⁓ super supportive and always would brainstorm with me even. So they would come up with ideas with me. I think it would be different if it was one for one, but my male characters especially, besides skin color and hair color, they have kind of the same face.
House Of Peregrine (44:07)
Yeah, okay.
Jessica (44:07)
It's
more anonymous. So I felt very supported by them. Recently I had a situation where I felt very uncomfortable and dismissed when meeting somebody's family. And he made me feel very uncomfortable whether or not he intended to with the work I do. So that was an unfortunate experience. But I...
I think this will always be a part of me. And obviously when I meet the right person, how much of we share of our personal life is very open for discussion, but to be able to draw and process through art, that's something that I definitely want to keep.
House Of Peregrine (44:48)
Yeah, no, that's amazing. And it's actually a really, I mean, maybe you feel this. I felt this as being an artist as a woman and being kind of more public about my life is it's not just my story. As a woman, it's never just your story. So the heroine's journey, in my opinion, is a community story. So whenever I'm telling my story, it's also my husband of 22 years' story. ⁓
Jessica (45:10)
Yeah, I agree.
House Of Peregrine (45:17)
It's my kid's story. so I always, maybe I'm too sensitive about it, but I'm always editing very creatively what I tell and what I don't tell. And so I think it's really, I would love if you would keep, I would love to see Vanilla Cool Dance's take on motherhood, on like aging, on, I hope you keep her with you as you.
go throughout your life and you're younger than I am. But this level of bravery, in my opinion, is needed in women's stories. And so I love that you're sharing it. So if I can give you that reflection, that is, it's not easy. ⁓ And my partner and I did this with the TED Talk because it was his story too, because we've been together so long. And that's a very tender process, I would say, with women's stories. And so I hope you keep doing it even
Jessica (46:03)
Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (46:12)
past, wherever life takes you. hope you keep commenting and letting us in and softening and ⁓ giving us these insights because they're invaluable.
Jessica (46:23)
Thank you. Yeah, and I really understand that the editing and I think when you have other people involved in your story and I noticed that more when I write my sub stack because it's longer form, you know, in a single panel cartoon, there's not so much you're distilling a singular moment and in those it could, I've really had no problem and then when I start to expand on them in longer form storytelling, I have.
been more cautious or sensitive or yeah, in my head about making sure I'm respectful or making sure the other person has time to read it first, that I'm not causing harm accidentally by sharing my story.
House Of Peregrine (47:09)
Yeah, but what I've noticed, at least, and what I would like to give to you is make sure you're not leaving parts out just to, I don't think you will do this, but there gets to a point where you can't not hurt people.
Jessica (47:21)
Yeah, that is true. That is true.
I have a few stories that I have in the bank probably because I'm waiting to, one of the greatest lessons I learned is to write from a closed, a ⁓ healed, not a healed wound, but a scab wound because when you are not an open wound, because when you're sharing from an open wound, you're so exposed to the world's
House Of Peregrine (47:39)
Mm-hmm, not an open wound. Yeah.
Jessica (47:49)
thoughts and if you haven't processed it yourself, ⁓ that can be very difficult. that's been a big lesson to me to share from a scabbed wound or skin. There must be a better way to say this, closed wound than a bleeding one.
House Of Peregrine (48:04)
Yeah,
yeah, that's such good advice. ⁓ Yeah. And another story I heard is about a warrior who someone was convinced they were going to kill them and they pull their sword out and they don't kill them. And then they come back the next time this person is convinced they won't kill them because they didn't last time. But then they pull out their sword and kill them. And they said, what was the difference? Why didn't you kill them the first time? He said, the first time I was angry.
Jessica (48:34)
⁓ that's so yeah, that's amazing. What a story. Now we can kill him with a clear head. Yeah,
House Of Peregrine (48:38)
Yeah, but also not in anger, right? Sometimes
things need to be done. ⁓ And so this is what my last question is for you. We're wrapping up on time, but you mentioned something that really resonated with me and it's part of a movement which you said at the beginning you were very angry and now you're able to call people in instead of calling people out.
Tell me about that process. It's a really important process, collectively, relationally, women in general. And I hate to universalize your story so much, but you are a brilliant example of what's happening for a lot of women in general. Tell me about that process. Like, what have you learned more broadly?
Jessica (49:24)
Yeah,
yeah. And I mean, I think you see this with every aspect of society and with new movements that come up and how it creates polarization. And I mean, ⁓ I have very strong values and very strong principles. So it's not on me swaying within those values or principles, but it's...
you know, the pendulum swings in one direction and I realized that my anger wasn't helping me connect with what I really wanted. So ultimately I would like a partner. Ultimately I want to have amazing sex. I don't want to just show up with angry anger and assumption and the person sitting in front of me is not the
world. It's not they're not the everything I had experienced up until that point. And they had their own upbringing and their own lived experiences. And I think it's really scary what is happening in the world. It's really scary with the rabbit holes of content that you can get served on Instagram and these echo chambers. And the more that we can
bridge curiosity in our interpersonal lives and realize like, ⁓ ultimately we want to win win here. Ultimately, like, hopefully your partner wants to be a good partner. Hopefully the person you're dating wants to show up for you and approach things from a place from compassion and curiosity while still holding your boundaries and still holding your standards. And I think we will get closer to, you know, where we want to be and collectively start to heal.
House Of Peregrine (50:50)
you
Yeah. What I want to ask in that process is do you think there's a way of doing this without that alchemizing first that anger?
Jessica (51:28)
No, but I think that you can. ⁓ I think. I think anger is a natural or disappointment is a natural reaction when you realize that you could have had it differently. And when you realize that life could have been different, I think how quickly you cycle through that anger or how you handle that anger or how you react to that anger ⁓ or channel it is is.
more in in your control. And I mean, I can still be angry for sure. And, and I was part of it, you know, for years, I would draw cartoons that were very anti men very calling men out. And they were funny. And men followed me too, because they also laughed at them because I made it in cartoon form. And every once in a while, I'll still do it too. Because you know, it's also okay. But but I realized I was part of this
House Of Peregrine (52:06)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica (52:28)
You know, if a female follower that was following me and soaking up all this content that they're gonna leave feeling, I don't know, better than the men that are out there, which is ⁓ not what I want to feed. I don't want to feed that anymore.
House Of Peregrine (52:44)
Yeah, yeah, so it's a life lesson to know how to channel anger and how to recognize it. And so I think it's an important lesson, honestly, and that's one that I think you're also teaching us ⁓ and alchemizing. if artists like you can alchemize in a group way this anger, collectively, we can move to a, I don't want to say a more productive because this kind of anger, this is just my opinion.
Jessica (53:12)
Yeah, I think
it is. Yeah, we need it too.
House Of Peregrine (53:14)
from my own process, yeah.
But learning how to use it well is something that, at least for myself, ⁓ has been a lesson for me. So I just wanted to hear what your experience has been with it. So it's really a pleasure to see, for me at least, other women going through this process and getting to this place where they take their place as creators and not.
Jessica (53:27)
Yeah, yeah, thank you.
House Of Peregrine (53:41)
going through all the stages of Warrior, tearing it down, building it back up. And things we, yeah.
Jessica (53:47)
Yes, yeah, yeah. And I think
anger isn't a bad emotion. And ⁓ if we're all just like passive and like, that's also not enough fire to create change either. So we need both. I love what you said.
House Of Peregrine (54:04)
Yeah, yeah,
good. Well, I have asked you so many hard questions. Thank you for hanging with me and thank you for the work you're doing. I would love to see, I want to see your work on being an expat and being an international person. Just my plug is to have an annoying expat cartoon at some point or annoying tourists.
Jessica (54:23)
Noted.
House Of Peregrine (54:30)
No, but ⁓ the themes you're exploring are super interesting. I love the work you're doing in the world and I can't wait to bring it to our listeners and also ⁓ watch you keep creating in the world.
Jessica (54:41)
Thank you. was such a joy talking to you and I loved your questions and this conversation. Thank you for having me.
House Of Peregrine (54:47)
Yeah, good.
Good. Thanks for coming on and thank you so much for listening to today's episode of the House of Peregrine podcast. Please like and subscribe and please leave a comment. I read every single one and we love hearing your input. See you next time.