Transcription - Profit + Purpose. Financial Success as a Startup Founder
House Of Peregrine (01:03)
Hello everyone and welcome back to the House of Peregrine podcast. I'm your host, Mickelle Weber. And today I'm speaking with Nina Aziz Justin a resilience mentor, traction strategist and TEDx speaker. Originally from Malaysia and now based in Amsterdam, Nina brings a unique mix of business insight and personal experience to the conversation. She's spent over 20 years helping companies grow across more than 40 countries and is the founder of several ventures herself.
She also hosts her own podcast, Business Bites, where she shares practical advice for entrepreneurs. But Nina's work goes beyond strategy. As a mother navigating life with a daughter who has a rare neurological condition, she brings a deep personal understanding of resilience, not just as a concept, but as a very real lived experience. In this episode, we talk about navigating change, building a business with sustainability in mind, and how personal experiences shape the way we show up professionally.
It's a thoughtful, honest conversation about what it means to keep going and stay grounded through uncertainty. Thank you so much for joining me, Nina.
Nina Aziz Justin (02:08)
Thank you for having me, Mickelle
House Of Peregrine (02:11)
Today I want to start out, you have so many facets that you're sharing with the world, which is actually really rare. have to say, people will say brave, but I want to say also rare. Because as a professional woman, we are told to leave things at home, right? And so I love that you bring all, at least a lot more of the aspects of your story to the table so that we can learn and grow with you. So, but I want to start first by
talking about professionally, tell me what this means, attraction specialist, if you wouldn't mind.
Nina Aziz Justin (02:42)
Basically, this is my focus in my work. I try my best to bring all aspects of business into one focus of alignment point, which is traction. And this is about running a business which is beyond purpose and beyond meaning. That means it's gonna...
also reward you in financial terms because it is a business because what happened quite often is that we find ourselves focused on purpose and meaning yet are not creating a business that is financially rewarding and this is
What I'm trying to do in my daily life when I work with entrepreneurs is just to make sure that they are financially rewarded at the earliest point in their business journey so that they can keep growing as a person and as a business. Because as you know, nine out of 10 businesses actually fail due to this.
House Of Peregrine (03:38)
And not, wanna, we'll get into your personal story, but this is actually something that is very rarely talked about, I would say. And so I love that you have insight into this because often we're told in startup land, like sacrifice, sacrifice, sacrifice, sleep on your couch, do all this stuff. And this is maybe possible when you're at university, you have all the time in the world to pursue something like this, but.
Nina Aziz Justin (03:42)
Yeah, of course.
House Of Peregrine (04:05)
That's not true. being paid and actually watching out for both. It's been called the double bottom line before or watching out for both of those things, meaning and purpose and sustainability and your own personal financial. Those two things are hard. They're on two separate sides of, it can be seen as they're on two separate sides of the spectrum, but I think you might have a different answer.
Nina Aziz Justin (04:12)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I think they are connected because, you cannot call your work a business if it's not going to be financially rewarding because ultimately, yes, you will learn a lot. will grow a lot. will experience a lot, but you will not be able to have that as something that you can continue to grow and build over the years.
Also for your own sake. mean, obviously some people started a business because they have a very deep pocket, but is that really a business? We can always, accept that there will be a period when you will not be making a lot of money. But if you are running a business and while you are still trying the different business models and you're still like prototyping, they could be, you know,
some leeways to not look at your business only as a money making machine, but at some point you have to start making money. And my work is basically to kind of like inject some form of reality into that journey and make sure that while we are pivoting and prototyping and trying different business models, we are still going to go for that financial reward as a North Star
Because if you just use your purpose and meaning and, and joy, which is, which are all good. You will not be able to sustain that for much longer than let's say three years, unless you have deep pockets and you can throw money constantly into that equation. Even if you have an investor, that investor will ask you for some financial performance. So I think it's, it's.
Basically making sure that as an entrepreneur, everyone who goes into that game understands that the goal of the game is still financially related. And it's not just purpose, meaning sustainability impact resonance and all that beautiful stuff that we do every day too. But we have to do that because we can sustain ourselves financially. And with that.
In mind, we can do more and help. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (06:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Do you find yourself navigating a lot of shame to get people to that point? Or what would you say is the number one block for people in that, owning or operating a business that's maybe passion-led or something that comes from themselves?
Nina Aziz Justin (06:56)
When you say, when you use the word shame, when you say shame, is it because money is something that is seen as dirty or not good?
House Of Peregrine (07:06)
Yeah, well that's
what I've experienced with particularly women and maybe some men that are purpose-led. That's been my number one impression and something I've worked within myself as well. But I don't know if you see it more widely or if it's just something that I'm seeing because it's part of my journey.
Nina Aziz Justin (07:12)
Mm-hmm.
Of course, it's not very okay. It's also like, you know, I'm also raised in a. In an Asian culture where, you know, speaking about money, so openly is not considered classy or graceful, but I'm not talking about money in that way. I'm talking about money as.
as an indicator of your performance here. It's not the only indicator of performance, but it is still an indicator of performance if you're running a business. If you decide to enter the game, let's say if you want to compete in a 100 meters race, you have to understand it is still a race and it is still the distance that you have to make. And that's the same with the business. If you want to be in business,
House Of Peregrine (07:45)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (08:07)
and you want to call your venture a business and not a nonprofit organization, then you need to still be aware that is a very big indicator of your performance of every single effort you put in there. Every minute you spend, every dollar you spend, it has to be translatable into something that would generate more of that.
Let's say if you put $1, it has to generate another dollar at minimum, you know?
House Of Peregrine (08:37)
Yeah,
yeah, and that's the game. So know the game you're playing. And I think that I've had this experience of being a woman founder, of someone who's a founder, and then people assume I'm running a non-profit and not a which has been a very interesting experience. But.
Nina Aziz Justin (08:41)
Yeah.
Is that because you're a female founder or is it because they think what you're doing is something that is very close to your meaning, your purpose and the top, like something that's close to your heart? Is that an assumption or is it, is it something that you truly feel?
House Of Peregrine (09:02)
I don't know how.
Yeah, it's interesting because my partner Doug, he has always had his own companies that he starts and then sells and they're very close to his heart and he'll say that but no one ever asks him if they're a non-profit.
Nina Aziz Justin (09:29)
Mmm.
House Of Peregrine (09:30)
So it's been my experience that
that's the difference. Maybe it's how we talk about it. Maybe it's doesn't matter what it is, but it's just been a very interesting journey to have to answer that question more often than maybe he does. He works with software for children that is very close to his heart and his story, his own personal story. ⁓ And so it just it always has made me curious, maybe a little bit angry. But now I just see it as an opportunity to to.
Nina Aziz Justin (09:38)
Mmm.
Wow.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (09:57)
explain more about my business. yeah, and so when you work with a business or a founder, you're really going into showing them the game they're playing, finding ways to make the business more profitable, which is the game you're playing to have to make money. That's part of the game you're playing. And then let them also hold their purpose. Is that do I have that right?
Nina Aziz Justin (10:08)
Mm-hmm.
Well, your purpose is always your starting point, right? You can't do anything well unless your heart is in it, right? So there is no question about the purpose and the big picture, but we're talking about systems. We're talking about mindset. And if you have a really big dream, but you have no system, you don't have the right mindset.
You don't have the tools to achieve this dream. It's just a dream. And this is what is happening in quite a few companies where they are just living a dream, but that dream will not be sustainable, just like everything else. And I think going back to your initial question, do I have...
Do I feel shame? said, no, not at all. I think I...
I think a lot of people are ashamed because they are hiding behind something else. That's not, they probably have fear and that fear is enclosed in something that we think is shameful to top up money. No, you fear to actually take on this journey 100%. That means I like this, but I don't know if I like it too much.
Enough to that so that I can make a lot of money. I don't know. ⁓ Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (11:43)
So you can choose it, yeah.
Yeah, and I find that owning that from myself saying like, no, I'm in this to make money. that's really hard to say and really hard for people to hear when that conversation comes up. And so I think it's just really interesting. I'm glad, yes, yes, yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (11:48)
and
Yeah.
So that you can do more, you can do bigger things. Yeah. I mean, if you are struggling
to make ends meet for yourself and also to feel valued, feel, Hey, I am, you know, I'm growing here. have numbers in my bank account to show that. And I can inject some of that into more, you know, things for my business and more opportunities for other people to work for my organization and provide a bigger platform for many more peregrines than, you know,
House Of Peregrine (12:09)
Yes.
Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (12:28)
I mean, yeah, also,
House Of Peregrine (12:29)
Makes no sense. It makes no sense. Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (12:31)
you know, there are organizations that are doing that not for profit, right? I mean, but that's not you, right? Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (12:36)
Yes, yes, yes, exactly,
exactly. And that's basically what I say. There are people doing this. That's just not what we're doing. And it's important and I respect it. So I want to back up because you have so many rich layers of your story. You've worked in startups for a very long time, like in a really, which I love how you're speaking from this place of.
Nina Aziz Justin (12:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (13:01)
wisdom and getting people to the next level because you're right, it does have to start with passion. That's a really good place to start a startup. But then it has to change. And you've seen the results of that not changing and it's not pleasant. It's not good for anybody. Sure, you learn lessons like you said, but you also have this really rich experience.
So you have that experience you're bringing to the table. And then you have this experience of living abroad most of your adult life. And so we started out with the business stuff because I'm super eager to get into that with you. But if we can take a moment just to tell your story of growing up in Malaysia, ending up helping people in 40, over 40 countries with our business, and then to where you are today.
Nina Aziz Justin (13:47)
Okay, so we'll start from ground zero. I'm Malaysian, so I've been raised in a sort of a progressive Muslim family where faith, family, freedom, all kind of mix into one. I have always been encouraged to be independent. My mother has always been a career woman, so I do not have.
another role model as a mother. And that could be a good or a bad thing because my mom worked really hard. She could not imagine. And I think this is her own legacy issue because her mother did not work and all her life she was just like, I'm never going to stay home, going to be a working woman and I will not quit my job for my children.
This is not my thing. So I didn't have a mother who was like living at home, taking care of me or cooking and all that stuff. I didn't have that. So my real mother was a working mom. So I was raised with that despite the fact that obviously I have the strong Asian stroke Muslim values. It's still quite loose in my case. You know, I was raised with honor and grace and also not forgetting my roots. But apart from that.
You go girl, basically. so I, you know, I've always wanted to go abroad as a child. I don't know whether that is an ancestral thing or is it because my, my mom has a younger brother who studied in England and he gave me when I was six or seven years old, little, pencil case.
in the shape of a double decker bus. It's like a red pencil case. And somehow that just planted the seed in me. I wanted to go and study in England. So I had that in my mind, like, okay, this is what I want. I want to go to London to sit on the double decker bus. And I thought, I'm too young to even introduce that topic to my parents.
But I had it since I was young that I'm going to go there and study there because I didn't know that you could do anything else because my uncle was studying in England. So was like, I'm also going to go there and I'm going to sit on this double decker bus, which is what I did when I made it happen when I was 18. I arrived in London and the first thing I did was actually went on the double decker bus because that's what I always wanted to do since I was a kid. So there is this deep yearning for seeing the world.
And I think studying in England gave me that additional layer of living in a multicultural environment. London in the nineties, London has changed now since Brexit, but in the nineties it was different. I mean, I would sit on the tube to go to uni next to people of different races. And I really enjoyed that very, very much. I just felt.
like I could be more than just what I thought I was. Not that I was small and there was nothing wrong with my culture. I wasn't fighting a war. I was not looking for economic gains. At the time, the Asian economy was booming. I would have had a leap in my career if I had gone home. But I remember when I graduated, my parents were like, yeah, isn't it time to come home? And I wanted to go to France. mean, my husband's now.
my husband's French, but I didn't know I was going to marry a French guy at the time. And I was like, no, I want to go to France to study French. And they were, they didn't understand. They were like, why? Why do you need to speak French? Right? So, actually I just wanted to have another adventure, another, another exposure, another layer. And I came back to London and work in England and then, you know, the internet, the first 1.0 internet. So you can do.
the maths, I'm not young, I'm 100 years old to be exact, started, you know, and I joined a startup then. So my startup journey started in the nineties. So I'm like the OG of the startup world. And yeah, so that that's like how it panned out for me. I did not plan to stay on this long.
But every time there was a new opportunity and new ways of doing things, new ways of expanding and becoming, and I went with that. And not without any grief, of course, but that's just how my life has played out until today. And one of the other things I wanted to do when I was younger also was to...
to see the world and to work in many countries. So when I started in the first startup in London, it was a funded, it's a huge German media company that funded that startup. And when we grew, I was promoted to go and work at the head office in Germany. So from London, I was in France, back to London and then went to Germany and...
You know, that gave me my dream again, which was to work internationally. And I was heading the news channel and the personal personalization technology licensing in 14 countries. So then I started my international career. So everything you could say I was lucky, of course, but everything came from that yearning that I had.
to see the world and to believe that I can do this and that I will upset some people and I will upset my mom and nobody would understand my choices, you know, but this is something that I wanted to do. So in a way, you know, I live my dreams.
House Of Peregrine (19:21)
Yeah, that's incredible. And that it started so young, six and seven years old. That's, that's an incredible feeling. and I, I do believe that we have this at least partially innately, because I just remember when I was that young too, wanting to learn a language so desperately wanting to live abroad and no one else had this dream. They're just like, why, why would you want to do that? And so.
Nina Aziz Justin (19:28)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Thank you.
House Of Peregrine (19:48)
That is, it's a beautiful story. Thank you so much for sharing. So then ultimately you met your partner, Justin, in France?
Nina Aziz Justin (19:57)
No, we met each other in Hong Kong at a work conference, you know, because I've, you know, I've worked internationally. And he, he also works internationally. So you kind of meet people who are just like you. And that's what makes it all exciting and addictive and, part of this journey. Yeah. And then.
House Of Peregrine (20:18)
And when, yeah,
when you say like you, you don't mean other Malaysians. You don't mean other, doesn't, like you, when you say like you, you mean other people like you, what do you mean?
Nina Aziz Justin (20:31)
I meet other Malaysians as well. ⁓
House Of Peregrine (20:33)
Yeah, but not
just sharing a cultural background.
Nina Aziz Justin (20:37)
You know, yeah, that's a good question, Mickelle because, yeah, what are, who are people like me?
Hmm. I think it's like when you move, you transform, right? You transform. You know, a mind that has been stretched could not go back to the state that it was. It's not possible. It's your mind. It's neuroplasticity. It's not possible. So with any move, you have to go through an identity crisis.
So when you say people like you, who are they? I'm like, I don't know. That's like, we're talking about identity here and identity is integral to this particular experience of people like you, like me and many others who move from one place to another. Your identity will be questioned. And then at some point people say like, who are you talking about? And you're like, Hmm. You know, so there's identity, that's a growth that's.
transformation and yeah, people who probably have had similar experiences may not be the same, but people who already become someone which is like this tapestry, this patchwork of lots of different places and people and cultures and values and yeah, that's the identity. So yeah, I met my husband at a work conference in Hong Kong.
He is French at the time he was living in New York and we have this long distance relationship for a while and now we are here and you know that's our life, that's our life story and our kids are know, neither here nor there, they're here. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (22:20)
Yep. Yep.
that's, that's the, that, that you can't explain it. It's just time to go somewhere. It's time to be with someone and that's living a different kind of life. It's a, it's an, it's an examined life or a passion led life or a, so I just think it's, it's very beautiful to hear these stories and hear other people reflect what other guests on this podcast have even said. so they've never met, but I've met them and they're saying the same thing.
Nina Aziz Justin (22:45)
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (22:46)
which
is really beautiful. I want to talk about your most recent, thank you for that, by the way. Thank you for going into that with me. It's one of my great joys in life to be able to hear people define themselves.
Nina Aziz Justin (23:00)
I
can't define myself, Mickelle ⁓
House Of Peregrine (23:02)
Yeah, no, but I mean, you
have, you have, it's in a very, think, reflecting back, it's about not being held back, living your dream, but more than that, feeling into a new kind of dream and being willing to do that multiple times in your life.
Nina Aziz Justin (23:22)
I allow myself to evolve basically. Yeah, I yeah, I This is not something that I have thought through when I was younger when I made my first start like the adventure journey And of course when I moved to Germany, it was totally different experience than when I was in London because then I had to embrace
House Of Peregrine (23:24)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (23:45)
my identity again in a totally different way because Germany is less multicultural, at least when I was there, now it's changing also. And I wasn't in Berlin because Berlin would have been a little bit similar to London, but where I was, I was the only brown person in the city. But then I embraced that and I didn't have any bad experience from that.
Yeah, maybe that's why I'm still here and I'm not discouraged, know, despite these kind of diverse experiences. And yeah, and I think I allowed myself to evolve without really, you know, being young, you don't really think too much. You just want to do things. But now when I look back on it and I think that's the beauty of hindsight, it's like, okay, I allowed myself that. Yeah, I leave some space for wonder.
in my life, yeah.
House Of Peregrine (24:35)
Yeah.
And do you find that, so I want to ask this carefully because it brings up things, but like, were you a difficult child? I say this with love because I was a difficult child.
Nina Aziz Justin (24:45)
No, I wasn't
difficult in the sense like I was disobedient. Look, I'm Asian, right? I mean, I don't know how much you know about Asian upbringing. We're not supposed to be so openly rebellious. We have to respect like there is God and then there's your parents and then there's you. Okay. So there is a strata in the, in the, your existence as an Asian child.
House Of Peregrine (25:06)
Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (25:11)
My parents were, you know, very progressive. So there's a lot of space for me in that time even. But I think I started becoming a little bit more difficult when I was in London. I think when my parents asked me, when are you coming back? I didn't like that question.
Because I think I've outgrown my mold in a way. I mean, this sounds like I'm saying that the Malaysian mold is so small. It's not the case, but I've changed. I've become somebody else, you know, and I couldn't really reconcile the two worlds. And I think for my parents, they probably thought, I have become rebellious or I'm confused or I didn't know my identity, which could all be true too.
And there could have been also some cultural frictions or misunderstanding in that process because they had to understand me. They've never encountered a child like me. You know, I'm also the first born. And yeah, there's a lot of guilt on my side. I felt a lot of guilt, which I'm sure is familiar for many people who leave their families. You always have guilt and you always have grief. Grief is part of that process, part of the journey.
House Of Peregrine (26:20)
Yep.
Nina Aziz Justin (26:21)
I would say
House Of Peregrine (26:22)
Yep.
Nina Aziz Justin (26:22)
from time to time. And yeah, I went through all that and it became harder for them when I decided to marry a foreigner, when I have my children abroad, because suddenly the ideas that they have of me ever coming home again is diminishing as the years go by.
House Of Peregrine (26:42)
Yeah. So their dream is having to transform as well.
Nina Aziz Justin (26:45)
Yeah, I mean they had to allow themselves to evolve too. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (26:50)
Yes.
And that's the fun of being a, you don't even have to be a cycle breaker, but someone who's allowing, this allowing, at least from in my own personal journey has been one, a bit of a crucible of allowing yourself to evolve, has been a crucible and a constant theme in my life. So when I meet someone who's also been through that, and it seems like it's just been not as much of a crucible for you, it makes me just so happy to see.
Nina Aziz Justin (27:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Well, you know, now telling the story and we're on this podcast and you know, we are all tech speakers. It sounds so polished and nice, but the process, the little steps through this journey has not always been smooth.
House Of Peregrine (27:33)
Yeah. Yes. No, it's not. When
you're in it, there's no, you have no idea why you're in it. But, but then when you step back, so let's talk about you. So I've never had a fellow Ted Ted X speaker on the podcast. So we've both had, yeah, we've both had that experience, which is another, I don't know about you, but it was a life changing, affirming, destroying experience that then built back into something else. And so
Nina Aziz Justin (27:39)
Yeah.
Really?
House Of Peregrine (27:57)
Tell me, I wanna hear about yours. We can include your talk in the show notes, but tell me what it was about.
Nina Aziz Justin (28:04)
Well, in my TED talk, I spoke about resilience, which is my brand, of course. I call myself the resilience mentor. And it's actually not a brand that I came up on my own, came up with on my own. It was developed by a branding agency based on my life story and so on. And it was to differentiate myself from other business coaches or mentors or whatever consultants. So I'm really specialized. And my thing is about resilience building for sustainability.
So my talk was actually called the Resilience Equation. So I spoke about resilience and the parallel between raising a special needs child and being a startup founder or having had the startup life, you know, and there are several parallels and it's a mathematical equation, which I hope could be applied.
by anyone facing any kind of struggle in their lives. Basically, it's time, give yourself time, multiplied by beginners mindset or in my equation, I call it startup mindset. You are starting out, you don't know many things, you have to start from a place of no assumption and willingness to discover and allow yourself to go through that journey. And then, know, close bracket, because it's a mathematical equation.
to the power of incremental action. So it's like taking little steps, incremental steps, doing small things. You know, it's basically the principle of happy and learning. You learn, you rewire your brain when you do it repetitively and in small steps. So there are stories that are woven into this equation and that's really based on my startup life and my journey raising my second daughter who is a special needs child with a rare neurological condition.
Because there, no one could have helped us because when she was diagnosed, was one in 21 in the world. So in the Netherlands, they were just like, yeah, sorry. mean, you can tell us how she will develop. You can come back and feed your information into this system, but no one could help us. And when we were trying to place her at school, they didn't even know where to put her. Like which school do you want to put her into?
So that was a very difficult journey and it remains that way, but I have to adopt a new mindset. So what I have had to do was to build the inner scaffolding, so to speak, to sustain a life that I thought we should all still have. That is like, I'm not giving up my job because as I mentioned, I don't have this role model.
And, you know, and that's also how the resilience mentor, the business that I have today was born. I only came about after Isabelle's diagnosis and not before that. Before that, I was running my own startups. and, know, I think that's, that's what I meant by allowing myself to evolve because, you know, that's, that's the journey. mean, and I don't think this is, you need a special needs child to learn that, or you need anything catastrophic to happen to you. think it's, it's.
in a small way and in a big way what we should allow ourselves to do every day to build this inner scaffolding by giving ourselves time, learn with the view of like, don't know everything, I can still learn new things and I can do small things and build on that. And so that's the whole top basically.
House Of Peregrine (31:28)
Amazing. Well, and it
occurs to me as you're speaking and what I hear reflected is that you don't have an area of your life where you're not applying that. Cause when you're going to a new country, have this equation works and you've done this many times starting in a new country. When you have a startup, this is essential. And when you have a special needs child or even just being a parent in general, this
Nina Aziz Justin (31:41)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
No
House Of Peregrine (31:56)
is a very sustainable way of going through being a parent because you are doing everything for the first time. But having a special, like your story is so specific in having no road. You have no path. You are making the path. And that is, that's incredible that that's playing out over and over in your story. There is no path. You're making the path.
Nina Aziz Justin (32:08)
Mm-hmm.
I think for many people, this is the situation. It's just that we believe, let's say when I was raising my first daughter before Isabel came, Camilla, I thought I do that easily because she's a neurotypical. But every child is unique, right? And you are different. Also, you have to combine.
House Of Peregrine (32:26)
Yes.
Yes.
Nina Aziz Justin (32:42)
your work, your dreams, your relationship with your husband, or you move to another country. There's always a new mix in the equation. And yeah, and I think one thing that most people forget is to give themselves the time, the luxury of time, because we are often fed with this idea that if you're smart, you could figure it all out. I mean,
No figuring out sometimes, you know, it's on the job.
House Of Peregrine (33:13)
Yeah, and it occurs
to me that this is actually what you're bringing this home, actually helping businesses become businesses, having the capital they need, being profitable, is actually giving them more time. That's what you're actually part of what that is, is giving them more time. And that feeds into this equation that pivotal to your success and that you're sharing with others.
Nina Aziz Justin (33:27)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (33:38)
which I think is just so beautiful and so beautifully woven. it comes from a place of deep knowing, which I think is, yeah, I think it makes you stand out.
Nina Aziz Justin (33:48)
Yeah,
well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate that. But to be very honest, all I know is that we can all have microjoys. I don't go for big joys now. I mean, that will be a bonus, you know? But because I know we can all have microjoys, I focus on that. I mean, and I don't have this idea of
hassle-free life anymore. It's not possible for me. It's not available to me. I hope for other people they can have that. But I also believe I wouldn't have grown. And when I look at my life journey, I think when I have...
House Of Peregrine (34:12)
Yes. Yes.
Nina Aziz Justin (34:27)
You know, switch somewhere where, know, it's, it's called self-development at scale. It's like, take that was when is about what's diagnosed and that was really hard. And I had to embrace that. it is yet again, another journey, but it got better with time for sure.
House Of Peregrine (34:38)
Wow.
Yeah.
And would you describe these microjoys as part of living with resilience and vitality? Like, there a point when vitality goes into the equation? Because I think, at least in my life and in startups and in parenting, resilience is sometimes translated into everything's hard all the time. And when you say you're injecting these micro, allowing or planning or expecting these moments of microjoy,
Nina Aziz Justin (35:00)
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (35:12)
That leads me to wonder about resilience and making sure that we watch. We put that in the equation.
Nina Aziz Justin (35:18)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Do you really believe that we should expect things to be hard all the time in a startup?
House Of Peregrine (35:25)
That's what...
What I've seen be a trap is that this is if we're not having a hard time, if we're not strapped for money, if we're not going after, if we're not growing, and this is sometimes fueled by investors too, if you're not pushing as hard as you can, you're not going to meet your potential, you're not going to be able to compete, and vitality is not in the equation, it's not on the balance sheet.
Nina Aziz Justin (35:41)
and
House Of Peregrine (35:52)
Right. And sometimes not even a large enough paycheck for founders is on the balance sheet for some investors. And of course that's changing. And so I think it has potentially been part of part of startup culture that being resilient means that you're striving all the time. Suffer. Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (36:11)
You suffer. Yeah. Yeah.
I refuse to accept that because, I believe in the power of my mind. You know, I have proven cases for the power of my mind now because, you know, I said I wanted to do this and I had the chance every time. including, you know, speaking at Ted, when I saw you on that stage, like a few weeks after your talk, I had a coffee with you. Remember?
House Of Peregrine (36:35)
Yeah, I do.
Nina Aziz Justin (36:35)
And I was like,
must be quite nice to speak at TED. I really want to have that opportunity one day and the year after that I spoke at TED. So for this, I think your mindset is so important. Your mindset is part of that inner scaffolding for resilience that you need to build. Expecting suffering is, is dangerous. I think you can expect the journey not to
be as you visage because that's who knows we start a life right by expecting suffering that's a big powerful thought I would expect joy okay just to change the mindset like there is some there is a little or there are plenty of micro moments of joy
House Of Peregrine (37:06)
It never is, it never is.
Nina Aziz Justin (37:28)
You expect first year, second year to be trying, but you do not expect suffering.
House Of Peregrine (37:36)
Yeah. And I
to hear you say that so much because I've been saying it for 20 years.
Nina Aziz Justin (37:42)
This is like, this is just toxic mind that I cannot encourage that because that is not a growth mindset.
House Of Peregrine (37:48)
Yes.
Yes. But it's also suffering for high financial payoff is a uniquely, potentially uniquely American belief. And that
Nina Aziz Justin (37:58)
Really? But how often
does this happen? How often does this big financial payoff happen to people who expect suffering?
House Of Peregrine (38:07)
Yes, I totally, and I think there's something in the zeitgeist, we don't need to go, like I can go into the collective mindset of a lot of things, but we won't go there today. But I do think that there is a very important part of building something that is completely custom, completely based on your life. That includes moving countries, having the relationship you want, having the business you want, having the life you want.
Nina Aziz Justin (38:12)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
House Of Peregrine (38:35)
is never going to be just smooth. And so this resilience that you're speaking of is an incredibly potent.
if not essential, part of being successful, whatever that looks like for you. And so having a custom life, I always call it having a custom life instead of following the path that others have laid out for you. And that's in business, in partnership, in life, in where you live. I think it's such a beautiful thing to know you're going to have to.
Nina Aziz Justin (38:45)
Mmm. Mmm.
Mm.
Mmm.
House Of Peregrine (39:04)
cultivate if it's not in there innately.
Nina Aziz Justin (39:07)
Custom life, I like that. And I custom life comes from the recognition of the fact that life needs you to embrace change and to be flexible and to adapt, right? So you can customize it. What the essence of the word customize means you need to adapt it to something, right?
House Of Peregrine (39:29)
Yes.
Nina Aziz Justin (39:32)
adaptation can mean discomfort, friction, or whatever. it's also time that will ease everything, right? In my opinion. But I do strongly suggest if someone expects to suffer so much to get a high paycheck, to get out of that lane. No, no, just get out of that lane because the paycheck will come because you have had to
House Of Peregrine (39:53)
You
Nina Aziz Justin (39:58)
Pivot several times and that is customization. That's adapt, that's flexibility. And you will pivot so many times to get to that paycheck. Not you will suffer. I don't know, gazillion sufferings. mean, I, I mean, I don't know. mean, personally, I will not recommend that.
House Of Peregrine (40:02)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
No, I wouldn't either. But we do see, I mean, at least in my circles in the news, that most people who have done had a lot of success have suffered in their personal life as a result. Yeah. Also, yeah, also, yeah, yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (40:26)
personal life. you mean personal life, not just business life or personal life. Yes. You
need a very strong partner in life for this kind of life.
House Of Peregrine (40:38)
Yeah. And also as I think as an international, you have to have a strong partner. As a startup founder, you have to have a strong partner. As someone parenting a child with special needs or children at all. And you and Justin have done that. Do you want to tell me a little bit anything about that? You guys are both kind of in the same. And I look up to that because we're both, my partner and I are both in the same, both in startups. And that is unique. It's usually one stable partner, one.
Nina Aziz Justin (40:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Yo.
Yeah, well, you guys,
yeah, you guys definitely have done it too, right? I mean, you you, you uprooted your whole family to a new country, put your children through a new system, new language. You didn't know anyone here apart from maybe people, one or two people. don't, I don't know your background story, but, we,
House Of Peregrine (41:06)
Startup founder.
Nina Aziz Justin (41:25)
I mean, I have to be very honest. mean, David and I, are very, very good, solid partners in our life journey. But it's not because we always are on the same page. It's just that we both understand each other's power. how I, you know, we understand that.
House Of Peregrine (41:47)
Please.
That's, stop, pause there. I thought you were gonna say the normal thing. We communicate, we share a vision. Those are important. Say this again and please explain this, because I believe no one in the world has ever said what you're saying. We understand each other's power. And if they have, we're gonna say it again and it's gonna be Nina Justin. Because we understand each other's power. Please talk about that. That is an amazing thing to say. ⁓
Nina Aziz Justin (42:02)
Really?
Hmm,
I haven't really thought through that when I say that, I'm saying exactly what, I feel about my marriage. think my marriage is not perfect. We are both individuals. We're both individuals, but we understand each other's power. And he knows who I am and, you know, and I know who he is and there's no, there's no grace on that. I mean, we're clear about that. And
House Of Peregrine (42:17)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Thank God it's not. Thank you so much.
Nina Aziz Justin (42:38)
Right now, and for the longest time, he knows that I'm an entrepreneur. I cannot go back to corporate world. I have been there. I'm not doing it again because that's not where I would shine. And that's not where I feel where I belong. Okay. I may not have a place where I belong, but my home is within and that is where I am. I need to be here. I need to hang out with entrepreneurs. need to constantly do things and be challenged mentally.
And he is, he has a bit of that too. He's also an entrepreneur, you know that, but he's also better than me in other spaces. as parents, we are both with the same values. have not from the same culture. We are not from the same race. We grew up on the opposite sides of the world.
He's from a really strong Catholic family. I'm from progressive Muslim family. But we have the same values. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (43:35)
Wow.
And that, that is a normal thing, sharing values. That is a normal, like whether you come up with them or you come with them, that's normal. But how does this value play this, this having the same values play out when you're both pursuing really intense things in your career? Or is this a knowing that you'll step up for the other once it calms down? Do you structure things a certain way?
Nina Aziz Justin (43:38)
yeah, definitely.
Hmm.
House Of Peregrine (44:03)
There's no map for this. I have to say there's no map for this level of collaboration in a professional life with startup founders, too, in a marriage.
Nina Aziz Justin (44:04)
yeah.
A journey without a map. That's indeed how we should describe this journey, your journey and mine.
House Of Peregrine (44:18)
Yes. Yeah, yep.
Some call them trailblazers, if I can say that about myself. Something that I've been very reluctant to accept as something, but yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (44:22)
You
We can own that. It's okay. And I think...
House Of Peregrine (44:30)
Yeah. Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (44:32)
Hmm when it comes to certain things, it's very clear always that the family comes first So that family trumps everything else Everything else is negotiable. Of course More often I'm saying hey, I'm caring too much, know, you need to take some but you know, but this is a sort of a husband and wife cliché scenario
House Of Peregrine (44:43)
Define everything.
Nina Aziz Justin (44:54)
What is Nagashima? I think David is pretty laid back actually. What matters to me, like I pay more attention to like creating beautiful moments and his guy, I he's like, okay, you do that. I I don't care. ⁓
House Of Peregrine (45:08)
Yeah, but would you say
he values that in you and appreciates it? Yes, perfect, yeah. So he sees it, he appreciates it, he values it. That's important.
Nina Aziz Justin (45:12)
He likes it, yeah. He likes it, yeah. He likes it, yeah.
Yes, yes,
he does. I think that has become his norm now. Um, but if I'm tired and I say, Oh, I, I'm not doing that. He's also okay with that. So it helps that he's actually quite laid back. So when it comes to work, we are both like, you know, like I need to do my thing. And there's a lot of negotiation about like, you know, are you going to pick up Isabel or am I, know, but we've, we have created a system. So that's also something that I would.
encourage people who want to live this kind of lifestyle to think about. You need a system, not a routine. You need a system. So you need to have a system and you need to ask early and ask clearly, not like ambiguity and you know, no, you need to ask early and ask clearly and create a system. And once you have established your system, sometimes
You need to tweak it here and there, but the system will help you navigate this situation.
House Of Peregrine (46:20)
Yeah. And what
is the difference? So a routine would look like, I know every day he picks up Isabel, this day, this day, that's a routine. And what is a system? Describe, or maybe describe your system, or what you would name your system if you had to name it.
Nina Aziz Justin (46:34)
⁓
You need more than just you pick up Isabel that day. You have to no, no.
House Of Peregrine (46:37)
Yeah. So you're not talking about logistics. That's not what you're talking about. This
is talking about, is it talking about values, talking about limits, talking about goals, and then making a system around that, which looks like my work is non-negotiable. Your work is non-negotiable. So we have that. Family comes first. Yeah. So that's the, those are the non-negotiables. So you come up with the non-negotiables. Family first. Our work is equal.
Nina Aziz Justin (46:54)
Family comes first though.
and
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (47:05)
Those are the non-negotiables, but everything else inside of that is negotiable? Is that how you'd say the system?
Nina Aziz Justin (47:11)
Well,
the system is always like, also, we are one. We are we are always going to be the other person's biggest advocate, biggest supporter. No question about that. Also, like it's just like to give an example, which is easier for other people to understand. It's like not just you pick up Isobell about something happens and you can't pick up is about what is the backup. We don't we don't.
I mean, of course there will be situations when we will be, you know, like taken by surprise and say that, we don't have a backup for the situation, but for the routine, for the common situations, there should be a backup. You should know, you know, because now for example, he's traveling a lot. So I am the main, you know, carer of Isobel because he's not often in the Netherlands. And I have two babysitters, know, there is a system like he would check
like if I'm okay or not, you you need that. You need the check-ins every day so that we don't grow apart and we just, you know, acting like co-parent or co-finance years or co-living partner because that's easy to get into without realizing what we're doing, especially, you know, when we both are, you know, re-driven. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (48:26)
Yes, yeah.
And that has been one of the, like this happens with every relationship where your romantic relationship can maybe be subverted and then maybe brought back to life. But when you're operating at this level of, again, this system, your romantic relationship has to be put in that system, I think.
Nina Aziz Justin (48:46)
Yes,
yes, yes.
House Of Peregrine (48:47)
And that's
not date nights. That's not, I mean, maybe it is, but it's talking about fidelity. It's talking about all the very uncomfortable things that if you're in that well-worn path can be assumed. But when you're making a new system, you have to talk about and consider a lot more, I think.
Nina Aziz Justin (48:50)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, not always easy to navigate though, because I said that he doesn't really want to talk about it, you know, it's like, oh, do we have to talk about that? And I'm like, yeah, because I need to feel safe, right? And it's not like we have to talk about it every day or we have to talk about it all the time. But when I need to talk about it or when he needs to deal with some situations or some topics, you know, because I am his number one supporter, need you.
House Of Peregrine (49:08)
No.
No. Yes.
Yes. ⁓
Nina Aziz Justin (49:30)
I need to buy into that. It's not just to assume that I'm just going to do whatever you want me to do.
House Of Peregrine (49:39)
Yeah, in our system, I always say family comes first, but before that, lover status comes absolute first for us to still be married. ⁓ cause we can do a lot together. We're very, very, we're each other's biggest collaborators as well, sometimes professionally as well. And so for me, family comes second, honestly. And that, that is very important to our balance.
Nina Aziz Justin (49:47)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Okay.
House Of Peregrine (50:04)
And that's unique to us, not to any other. I wouldn't say I'd recommend that because it does sound like I'm saying our kids are second, which I'm not saying. what I'm saying is for me, being a lover comes first for us to keep this arrangement the way it is. And then our family, then our businesses, then you know, I mean, the hierarchy then gets very, but for me, that was a very big.
Nina Aziz Justin (50:10)
Mmm.
No, I understand you. I understand you. That's a good point. ⁓
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (50:31)
moment when I realized that and had and brought that on board and accepted it because it felt very selfish, icky, young, desperate. But I was like, no, this is how I gain energy as an entrepreneur and a creative is having this as a goal. so, yeah. Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (50:38)
and now
Yeah, it's, it's important that you, you
ask for what you need. yeah, I think, I think that's, that's cool. I mean, I'm not, I also think it's an important point you raised because I remember when I had my first daughter, I said, come first. And most people were like shocked, like, you now have a child. Why do you say that? But I'm like, but before she was born, it was me.
And now I have two and I still have a located space where I come first in this part. I come first, you know, and then them. Yeah. And I think with David and I, why I say family comes first is because I, I know I said it to him. I'm never going to divorce. This is just how it is. So.
House Of Peregrine (51:18)
Exactly.
Haha
Nina Aziz Justin (51:33)
If you're not going to make family first, you're to have to suffer. So we're going to work on keeping the family. That means within that, we have to love each other. We have to have the system that works for our family. We need to make whatever choice we make is for the family to stay intact. Right. And it's heavy when you put something else which is outside of you to be before you. But when I say family, it's not my kids.
House Of Peregrine (51:44)
Yep.
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (52:00)
It's the system. It's the system that we have. All of us is a part of that. ⁓
House Of Peregrine (52:00)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful. Yeah. That's so beautiful. And I love in this space of co-creating a custom life and a custom system that different words mean different things in your system. Your system has unique names. And I love that. And I think any couple or family who's navigating moving abroad or having an entrepreneurship or having any
Nina Aziz Justin (52:15)
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (52:26)
It's very beautiful to me that we get to make our own systems. I think that that's been, that's probably what I'm most proud of in my life, is that system. And everything grows from that, honestly. Anything we do lives or dies by the strength of our system or our custom created, whatever we're creating together. And I think that that for me,
Nina Aziz Justin (52:31)
too.
Yeah, that's good too!
House Of Peregrine (52:49)
also needs resistance or resilience. ⁓ And having that within a romantic relationship is not also a skill that we have. And it breaks a lot of marriages up when you move abroad or have a startup or have a child or a child with special needs. Like any of the subjects that we're talking about today need this equation.
Nina Aziz Justin (52:52)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yum.
yeah, definitely.
Yeah, little combination, you know, it's like, how do you play with fire? No, no, no, we don't talk about how we talk about how big is that fire now? Yeah, I think I think, yeah, as we as we have mentioned before, in this conversation, we have to allow ourselves to evolve. And that whole system keeps evolving to and kids grow up.
House Of Peregrine (53:12)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yes.
Nina Aziz Justin (53:34)
and we will go through stages of life where we will have different needs as well as a couple in a couple situation as a person and as a woman. I think, you know, now I have different needs than I did before. mean, you know, like after like you hit 40, you want to ground a bit more and stabilize a bit more. And then you start thinking about legacy, start thinking about, what do I leave behind? What do I
One still in my life, what do I still want to create? that, again, in the relationship dynamic, still both have to find each other again. And I think one thing that David and I constantly try to do now at our age is to find each other through this. His remaining years, what he wants to achieve, what I want to achieve, and then how do we make this system work for us?
So that is never going to finish. That's like work in progress.
House Of Peregrine (54:32)
Yeah, and it's beautiful.
It's actually very romantic, I think. And it can be a lot of things, but it's very romantic and not easy. yeah, I want to ask you one last question, and it's a big one, so forgive me. How do you define success?
Nina Aziz Justin (54:44)
my goodness. You know, it sounds like a question that I should have expected, right? Because we are both like, you know, podcasters. So this is not unusual, but it's like one of those situations when people say, can you tell me a little bit about yourself? And because you're so multi-layered, you're like, which part do I start with? Like, how, like, you know.
House Of Peregrine (54:45)
I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Nina Aziz Justin (55:08)
How do I angle this story? Because I could come from different places. So how do I define success in the context of this conversation? I would use a quote that says, if you travel far enough, you will meet yourself. So I think that would be my definition of success. I don't know. Is that so deep and so philosophical?
House Of Peregrine (55:28)
⁓ that's beautiful.
No, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. So thank you for sharing on short notice. Yeah, that's beautiful.
Nina Aziz Justin (55:36)
Yeah, thank you. You're welcome.
Yeah, I think I'm still in the journey of definition and I still am traveling, not just outwardly, but inwardly. And if I travel far enough, I will meet myself and that will mean I am successful.
House Of Peregrine (55:52)
That's amazing.
And I hope the journey never ends. That's the...
Nina Aziz Justin (55:56)
so that is delayed success, Mickelle.
House Of Peregrine (55:59)
No, but like, but the journey
of finding of allowing yourself to change is innate. And so I hope it's a pleasure filled one, I think. it's.
Nina Aziz Justin (56:07)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and we shall continue to live some space in our life for wonder.
House Of Peregrine (56:16)
Yes, yes, yes.
Very cool. Well, I have so much more. Like, I feel like we could talk forever. So this is like about any number of things that we have in common and we don't have in common. But thank you for sharing your story today. I want people to feel like they can reach out to you for the right purpose, which would be many, but professionally. Who is the right person if someone's wanting to have a mindset shift?
Nina Aziz Justin (56:23)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
House Of Peregrine (56:40)
within
being a business owner that describe your ideal person who would reach out and work with you if you wouldn't mind.
Nina Aziz Justin (56:46)
My ideal client
is someone who has already a business model because not having a business model and staying in that foggy experimental area will, it's not like I can't help them, but they will not benefit from my strength at its optimal level, which is.
doubling, multiplying your revenue. So if you are already there, you have tested your business models, then you just want to ramp it up. that would be my ideal client. I'm almost system agnostic because I look at the mechanics of a business and yeah, it doesn't matter about the age, the faith, the color, the gender. I mean that.
House Of Peregrine (57:24)
Sector, yeah. So it sounds like not an early stage founder, but maybe a scale up founder.
Nina Aziz Justin (57:30)
yeah, anywhere between two years and let's say eight years would be my normally like the idle client profile and most of them range from a solo partner which is not really where my sweet spot is. Normally there is a team of at least two to five people and 70 people company but I'm also not
getting myself involved with bigger companies simply because the way I work is I act as a core entrepreneur in that particular phase of the project. So I'm sitting with the founder as if it is also my journey and my project. And we look at it with that level of commitment and ownership from my side. So that's just how I work. Otherwise I'm too detached and I'm just like giving theories or giving ideas, but not really.
House Of Peregrine (58:13)
Yeah.
Nina Aziz Justin (58:19)
rolling up my sleeves that's not how I work
House Of Peregrine (58:22)
Yeah. So would you consider yourself a fractional member of the team for a journey, for part of the journey?
Nina Aziz Justin (58:29)
One could say that, but I don't take on a title for the company. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But yes, a fraction that might, I'm always on some of our retainers. So yes, that could be a work. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (58:33)
Okay, cool.
Cool. Cool.
may be getting into the weeds, but for the right people, it'll be helpful to hear exactly if they resonate with you, who they should be. Cool. Well, thank you so much for joining me today.
Nina Aziz Justin (58:47)
Yeah, definitely. Thank you for having me.
It's been a pleasure to talk to you and to go deep into certain topics. mean, actually, you've asked me some really good questions. I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah.
House Of Peregrine (59:06)
I hope so,
I hope so, and I hope people listening can also ask themselves the same questions. And I think you've shared with us some things that, again, like I said, I have never heard anyone say we know each other's strength. Power, yeah, we know each other's power is, you've just changed my life. So thank you so much.
Nina Aziz Justin (59:20)
hour. Thank you, Mickelle. It's been a pleasure.
House Of Peregrine (59:29)
Thank you. And thank you everyone for listening. I hope that you've enjoyed our conversation please feel free to go to HouseofPeregrine.com to check out more of what we're doing with people living abroad. Thank you, Nina, and I'll talk to you very soon.
Nina Aziz Justin (59:42)
You're welcome.